Comments about "Charges not likely for Azia"
<< Back to Charges not likely for Azia
90 Comments on this article:
I strongly believe someone should be fired/reprimanded for this. This went on for 8 months!!!!
For those of you are unaware, in the Asian community (China, Korea, India, any country), the prestige of the university you go to is very important. If your children go to good
universities, people are more likely to be friends with you, seek your advice on different matters, etc.. There are many Asians in this country who ONLY have Asian friends. For Asians of this variety, sending their kids to Stanford or some ivy league school is of paramount importance. People mistakenly think Asians want to get into a good university just because it may help them land a good job. The BIGGEST
reason why they want to get into a brand name unversity is to impress their Asian friends (there are exceptions of course). Why is this the case? In Asia, people who don't get into the top universities or lack relatives in powerful positions are extremely unlikely to get a good job.
For a male, attending a very presitigous university versus a low ranking school could be the difference between having a Scarlett Johannson look-alike for a wife and having a Rosie
O'Donnell look-alike for a wife. This post was to help educate some of the non Asians reading this as to the main reason why their Asian classmates focus so much on getting good grades...... Also, I think Stanford should really make an example out of Azia. While Azia was definitely not a real threat to Stanford, the next potential impostor might be.
She was fooling people for 8 whole months, I am not sure most students understand the magnitude of what she did.
She needs mental health intervention first. Then her family should join her in ironing out a REAL definition of failure. NO EXAMPLE NEEDED HERE...Stanford will sure-up security and the young lady will gain her confidence back..wish everyone well!!
It sounds like the Asians are a very shallow group of folks.
You're in the US now. We don't act that way so it's time you and your ilk grow up!
That is extremely insensitive. I am Asian but was born and raised in California, so I understand some of the ideals of both cultures. People around the world have different values, and that's just the way it is. For example, I love my parents, but I think it's ridiculous that they should have a say in what career I choose. However, to them, it is extremely important to honor your family, respect your elders, and do whatever it takes to maintain harmony in the group. My "American Dream ideals" - do what I believe is best and work hard to make myself happy - are often in contrast with what my parents believe.
Sure, heck, I also think that the above post makes Asians sound "shallow". However, I do not at all believe that ALL Asians feel that way. Regardless, for those who do, and for anyone who comes from a different culture and was raised to believe that different things are good in life, I think it's very important to respect those differences.
To "For non asians":
There is no "Asian" community. Asia is a big freakin' geographic area that is completely meaningless in terms of the nomenclature. Stop making generalizations about a swath of land east of Europe that consist of a multitude of diverse cultures, languages, ethnicities, religions...
Secondly, E. Asian cultures that share a "Confucian" cultural heritage do indeed value learning/education and the trappings that entail. But not all "Asian" cultures -- in fact MOST -- have no Confucian cultural heritage.
Lastly, it is not only "Asians" who are preoccupied with "name brand institutions", but every ethnic group preoccupied with success and social advancement. This preoccupation, sadly, seems to have become more acute through the years, rather than less, especially with the advent of the yearly publication of the "Top Universities" by the various media outlets. Other reasons surely exist as well, including the increasing practice of employers to use one's alma mater as a kind of litmus test when hiring.
Parenthetically, it is truly disingenous and hypocritical for Stanford students to disparage anyone who seeks the prestige of a "name brand institution". Indeed, except for a minority of "geniuses" who get in without trying, most students of prestigious universities worked their butts off with the precise objective of attending one of these elite schools.
How many news articles are going to be wasted on Azia Kim?
It's seriously becoming a regurgitated theme that has received excessive coverage. Get over it!
This is completely baloney. I've had friends who have criminal records because they've done things MUCH LESS severe than Azia Kim. I had friends who have criminal records because they did JAYWALKING or had the MUSIC ON TOO LOUD ("disturbing the peace").
It's disgusting that Azia Kim has gotten off easy and that this sends a disturbing message to individuals out there. I can't believe that no criminal charges will be filed. This should at least be criminal trespassing. Absolutely abominable.
For cryin' out loud, AZIA KIM HACKED INTO SOMEONE'S E-MAIL ACCOUNT. If's that not a potentially criminal offense, I dunno what is. C'mon, I've had several friends who did "harmless" pranks just like her but now have criminal records.
This is ridiculous. I've had friends convicted because they didn't pay attention to the stop sign and failed to stop. I've had friends convicted of jaywalking because they were rushing to catch the bus. I'm disappointed at the Santa Clara DA. They must've felt really sorry for her.
What kind of message are we sending to our kids? Have our Asian values really been perverted? So the lesson we are saying is: if you're ambitious and want to get a "good education," we will forgive you if you decide to commit fraud and pretend to be a Stanford student and a fake ROTC student. This is setting a very bad and disgusting precedent.
You've got to be kidding me. NOTHING is going to happen to this girl?! What the hell kind of message does this send? Sorry, kid, here's a drinking ticket for using that fake ID--oh, but you want to fake it as a student here for 8 months? That's totally ok.
It seems like because this imposter was a "quiet, nice girl" under (speculated)(and very assuming, IMO) "incredible pressure from her Asian parents"...she gets off scot free? What if this had been a black male? Or a white male wielding a gun? Would the same leniency be granted?
Not to mention all the military equipment she was issued. Stanford, I am thoroughly disgusted at this decision. Shame on you.
Reply to 'For non asians' :
She's from America , not Asia.
I went to high school with Azia and I just have to feel bad for her. Yeah what she did was wrong and should get punished properly for it, but at least be a little understanding to her situation. Our high school is nationally ranked with a great number of students going to UCs and ivy leagues. The expectations to go to stanford, harvard, yale, etc are unusually high. Although not all Asian-Americans at Troy felt the pressures from peers and parents to excell, A LOT of us did and still do. I cant imagine what she must be going through. I'm not exactly sure, but doesnt the punishment for a crime depend on the persons intentions? Its not like she purposely did this to harm anyone. And yeah its not fair to the people who worked hard to get in, but to me its like punishing a little kid for wanting to be an doctor or a firefighter. I'm not saying she shouldnt be punished at all, it's just hard seeing one of the nicest people in high school being criminalized.
wtf? reply to anonymous- "Its like punishing a little kid for wanting to be an doctor or a firefighter."
i asia america, like become an doctor or an law or an what parent tell to. soon go national rank high school (so proud i go national rank high school) want be just like azia kim. did i mention i asia america and go national rank high school? my an parents tell me mention that.
Reply to Anonymous -
Fraud is a crime. Look how much bad PR the university is getting out of all of this. I'm pretty sure they probably lost some potential students due to this whole fiasco. Even losing one potential student means losing $$$$$.
As for getting NO PUNISHMENT from ROTC OR Stanford, well since the parents sound like a bunch of jerks, she'll probably get punished by them. If I were her, I'd get away from her parents and start a new life. Going to STanford isn't going to make your whole life, even though her parents probably brainwashed her in thinking so. Maybe she'll grow up after all this an realize there's more to life than attending Stanford. But I was 18 once and I can see how she would have seen the world like this at that age.
you can't be asian when it suits you, them american when that suits you.
reply to haha-
sorry if it wasnt a good analogy, i guess its more like putting a kid in jail for taking a piece of candy? her inentions werent to harm anyone, she just wanted that candy. it was wrong and she should have to pay for it.
reply to guest-
yah fraud is a crime, but isnt there a difference between fraud to stay in school and fraud to steal someone else's money?
reply to i agree with bill and james-
It isnt about being Asian and then American its about being both. They're two conflicting cultures in one confused kid.
If Azia couldn't get into a good school like Stanford, she shouldn't have tried to give the impression that she is much more accomplished than she really is. Being Asian, I understand the pressures, but that is still no reason to do what she did. She should have sucked it up and told her parents the truth. In any case, Azia is a shame to all Asians and I hope she lives forever with the embarrassment of a being a fraud.
Compared to the Elizabeth Okazaki situation that went on for 4 years, Azia Kim's 8 months as a fake student is nothing. While the actions of Kim and Okazaki were clearly wrong and somewhat detrimental to the reputation of Stanford University, the controversy and public humiliation that they are experiencing are probably punishment enough for both misguided individuals. In addition, pursuing criminal charges against either of them would be probably be a waste of Santa Clara County's resources since there are "bigger fish to fry." Counseling for Kim and Okazaki, not criminal or civil penalities, would probably in the best interests all parties involved.
I'm with Anthony. I run through a stop sign on my bicycle and have to pay 115 dollars. Azia squats on campus housing for 8 months and pays nothing?? Nobody is saying send her to jail, or even that she should pay the ridiculous illegal occupancy fine, but no penalty whatsoever?
Perhaps there is something about this situation that we are not being told.
To Anthony Wong:
You are not well informed about Okazaki case,
which brings me to my second point...
To Daily:
Okazaki article needs a follow-up, preferably a story that involves some fact checking and investigative work. Try to leave out the hear-say and speculations this time.
Here are some points you could investigate and write up for all of us.
1. Elizabeth has her problems, but has she ever pretended to be a graduate student? I think she knows better than that.
2. Did she ever enter any labs in Varian? A lot of people voiced concern over her access to expensive lab equipment. I always got the feeling that she was afraid of the labs and quite disinterested in their contents. After all, labs are not very comfy places. She spent a lot of time in the Varian library, lounges and offices. Labs? Come on, she's into theory.
3. Expen$ive lab equipment thefts - leave that to a pretty serious criminal. (I guess you didn't hear about that.) Strangely enough, Elizabeth is the threat that warrants a security guard presence in Varian. Equipment thefts - not so much.
4. When she attended classes, did she ask for permissions from the instructors?
5. Did she have a university ID card, library privileges, a locker in Green, a study carrel in the music library?
6. Perhaps she had affiliations with several different departments on campus, resulting in things listed above. I wonder if music, German studies and film departments would have anything to say about Elizabeth's last three years on campus.
Side note: don't expect the university to be forthcoming with this information. After all, they put out a restraining order on Elizabeth based on your story. It would be somewhat embarrassing for them to admit that there was some legitimacy (however slim) in her presence on campus.
Please try to get this right. I know you had your sensational expose and the story is so much less interesting now, but you have the responsibility (and should have the decency) to finish what you started.
Sorry, I meant to address "To Anthony Wong" not "Anthony Wong" !
I am with "for non asians". It sickens me to see the sort of admiration and awe specifically Asian people but also people of Asian descent attach to Ivy league schools, Stanford and the West in general. Many successful people did not go to "boutique" universities and were still successful. I am a Stanford student and let's admit it: the education is not that good and certainly not worth the 40k every year. I have seen brilliant people who go to or teach at state/relatively unknown schools and I have seen some stupid idiots at Stanford. Where you went to school should not be a defining characteristic of anyone but at best a very rough guide in judging someone.
This Asian fetishism with prestige and label extends into the classroom as well. I am an engineering student and I can confidently say that I have yet to meet in a class an Asian student who has an intellectual interest in engineering or in his classes and who is not SOLELY motivated by grades.
To "For non asians"
Hopefully this incident will teach our people to CHILL THE FUCK OUT and expose their stupid moronic mentality. Obviously ethics, morals and integrity take back seats to the brand name school we attend, and that has to stop.
One would think that if Asians immigrate to the United States, they might be interested by the differences of the society here. Otherwise why bother coming over? "That's the way it's done in Asia" is an excuse of ignorance, and it is rarely tolerated of Americans that emigrate.
Prestige-fetishism and label-whoredom represent the most decadent aspects of Western society. Are people proud to immigrate for our crassest vices? You Asian apologists are doing your people no favors.
One other thing.
If prestige is all that important, one would think Asians would build their own universities in accordance with how they perceive prestige in Asia, instead of salivating over schools Hahvahduh and Stanfohduh built by the white man.
While the girl obviously deserves to be punished, and what she did was wrong, this article as well as others about her are so severely unbalanced that I am disgusted by the state of student journalism at Stanford.
Seoul National University, Korea University, and Yonsei University = wife who is beautiful like Jessica Alba, Hayden Panettiere, Christina Milian
very low ranked university = wife who is ugly like Rosie
O'Donnell, Star Jones, Roseanne Barr
It's that simple.
to asian admiration of the west. Im not quite sure what you have been doing with your time at stanford but obviously you dont use it well. This year i did an independent study with the number one mathematical analyst in the world and we had one on one talks every week. There are mathematicians worldwide who would give there left arm for such an oppurtunity. In a nutshell yes a Stanford education is worth 40k a year and id even go so far to say that were getting off easy at paying that much.
Also i find you're generalizations about asians being solely motivated by grades to be misinformed. One of best friends is from singapore and not only is intellectually motivated to study in school but is motivated to study outside of school. In fact most of what he learns is by himself.
Specifics aside stanford is a great school and underestimating it is misinformed. That being said there are clearly equal if not better oppurtunities at other universities without the sticker name. (check out deep springs if you want to see a life changing school).
To "A couple of points"
I would love to see a follow-up to the Okazaki articles as well. Based on the published accounts in the Stanford Daily (along with the San Francisco Chronicle, San Jose Mercury News, Modesto Bee, Fox News, CBS News, and the Associated Press), Elizabeth Okazaki appears to be a "homeless squatter" that stalks physics graduate students and compromised the security of the Varian Physics Lab. Okazaki's use of an "unauthorized" card key, along with propping open doors to ease her access to Varian, using university computers, and making "tea" for 4 years is somewhat more egregious than Azia Kim using the Stanford dorm facilities for 8 months and "pulling a prank" on the ROTC program at Santa Clara University. While Okazaki's and Kim's situations are different, pursuing criminal charges against either of them would be a probably waste of Santa Clara County's resources; however, both of them should be banned from the Stanford campus while their cases are investigated.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree with some aspects of it. Just because there are a few near sighted mathemticians who would give their left arm doesn't mean talking ONCE a week with a famous analyst is such a great thing. (It is DEFINITELY not worth $40 K.) The greatest mathematicians
were both brilliant and hard workers. The quality of the advisors has no impact on greatness.
All I got to say is that Asian parents are F'd Up.
Am I the only one who's sensed something other than cold, objective reporting in the Daily's coverage? The language has almost always veered toward the harshest, most pejoratively loaded option-- that she "masqueraded," rather than "posed," for example. I'm not sure if the authors have been conscious of their diction, but it's almost like they're subtly exposing how angry they are Azia tried to invade our elite campus. I'll be the first to say people need to earn their way into Stanford, that only the best and brightest should be admitted. But admissions are an arbitrary game sometimes and it's undeniable that hundreds, if not thousands, of qualified applicants are turned down in favor of candidates who are ostensibly no more qualified. With that in mind, it's a little troubling that the Daily's language would suggest some sense of entitlement or some attitude of superiority toward people who aspire to Stanford and don't make it here. I'm not defending Azia or even saying she was a qualified applicant (who knows? she needs help, that's all I know), just that subtle insinuations in the Daily's coverage have given me pause.
So the Stanford police don't go after someone who owes the university $40,000...and yet if you bike through a stop sign, they try to take your head off.
WTF??????
Someone as quoting that Azia's actions were "a harmless prank".
(1) She hacked her roommate' s email account.
(2) She fabricated a transcript for the ROTC
(3) She broke the official Stanford Housing policy and owes $42K in restitution to the University
That doesn't sound like a "harmless prank" to me.
How do you come up with that number?
Reply to Michael :
WTF! Cold Reporting? They've handled this girl with kid gloves. If she was black or latino, the writers would want her head and they probably would have charged her with numerous crimes and she'd already been in the slammer. She should count her lucky stars she's not getting charged.
A lot of people commenting on this sound bitter. I don't understand where all this hate comes from. The arguments of "what she could have done" and "it could have been worse" and "what about the next person who decides to do this" should not be relevant in figuring out what to do in this case. For some of you this is clearly turning into a witch hunt with the intent of punishing this girl (who obviously has enough issue as it is) as much as possible. Despite what she could have done, she DIDN'T actually do anything that serious. Are we going to start punishing people for what someone else in their situation could have done? The worst thing she allegedly did was hack into her room mates e-mail count, and even that was only for the purpose of staying at Stanford longer. It's not like she was steeling credit card numbers. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't owe Stanford jack. She's not bound by the housing contract because she didn't sign it or agree to it. She trespassed; that's about it.
Yes, I think that Azia Kim (and Elizabeth Okazaki) should be criminally liable. Do I want her to go to jail? No. But I do think that she should at least be charged with a couple of misdemeanors (criminal trespassing, disturbing the peace, theft, false pretenses, etc.). Stanford and the Santa Clara DA need to make an example out of her (and Elizabeth too).
I'm surprised by the outpouring of sympathy people have for Azia Kim. She gained something of value without paying for it. Sounds like theft to me. If people can get into legal trouble for downloading a couple of songs, surely Azia Kim should be liable for impersonating a Stanford student. What value did she get? Plenty. She got all the tangible and intangible benefits of being a Stanford student. Because of her status as a student attending an elite university (though obtained in a fraudulent manner), she gained a lot of respect from her Asian peers. And we all know, as I too greatly acknowledge, going to a brand name school is a big deal in Asian (and Asian American society). Asians respect you not for your work ethic or your character, but by what school you went to. If Azia Kim wanted to get a "good" education, she could've gone to any schools (like UC Riverside or CSU Fullerton). I think this whole she just wanted to get a good education is a load of baloney. She only wanted the prestige and the respect. If she accepted her place and went to a lesser name school, she could STILL get the good education she wanted, but her ego probably wouldn't be satisfied since most Asians wouldn't bother to pay attention to her and give her the light of day.
And everybody here seems to think that what she did was harmless and that she had no bad intentions. And people also say that the Santa Clara DA should go after bigger fish. Yeah, the DA office should utilize their resources going after people like my best friend who was convicted of jaywalking simply because he was trying to catch a bus. He looked both ways, saw no incoming traffic, and admitted that he illegally crossed the street to catch a bus. Nobody was hurt, he did not cause any trouble, and yet he's now stuck with a criminal record. Granted, jaywalking is an infraction and in most cases employers likely don't care, but because my best friend wanted to work for a government job, he was stuck with trying to explain his jaywalking offense to all his government employers.
Azia Kim knew what she was doing and she needs to be reminded that we have zero tolernace for this kind of behavior. If people can get into legal trouble for downloading a couple of songs or jaywalking to catch a bus, then Azia Kim should be punished for her charade of impersonating both a Stanford and an ROTC student.
Azia Kim did trespass on private property and the period of 8 months is quite a long time. She knew what she was doing (i.e. faking a Stanford identity) during that timeframe, whether she harmed anyone or not. Under the defense of mental illness, she should at least have probation or do community service, or something. There are consequences to such behavior even with mental conditions.
Opinions on here are rather harsh, so the opposite reaction to them would be sympathy.
If Asian cultures tend to value prestige too much, American culture has always made heroes of the renegade (or law breaker) who fools the system. This story resonates in both cultures. Azia Kim: law breaker, heroine, or cultural victim?
A a parent of a daughter in college, as the husband of a Korean woman and friend to many colleagues who have commiserated with me through their own childrens' college admissions wars, the Azia Kim stories both fascinate and horrify me. Ms. Kim's story could easily have been my daughter's three years ago or my own thirty-five years ago. Back then, my parents simply asked me to succeed in school and I felt it my duty not to fail them. I might have pretended to attend a school where I had not been admitted just to avoid hurting parents I dearly loved and who clearly gave their greatest devotion to me.
I've read a lot in the responses to the Azia Kim stories about the unreasonable expectations of Asian parents. From an outsider's view in conversation with friends and colleages, and from an insider's view as a part of my wife's family, I have observed that no parents love their children more than Asian parents do. They are often willing to put their own right to pleasure and ease on hold in order to support every possible need a child might require to succeed in the world. I often observe in my friends and colleagues the agonies they go through worrying about every aspect of their childrens' lives. Of course, they may have become what I also became, a "helicopter parent", still hovering over and directing my child long after other American parents let their children make all decisions for themselves.
My wife and I wanted no less than the best possible everything for our daughter, so we encouraged her to study. We sent her to local after-school prep courses. We kept in contact with her teachers. We prompted her to meet test and college application deadlines. And we did encourage her to attend the best college to which she could gain admission. Well, she didn't get into any school she applied to. She attended community college and is now a transfer junior at UCSD. We were crushed and made no secret of it. Here's where Azia's and my daughter's story might have meshed. My wife was inconsolable...what were we going to do now? As rejection letters arrived, my daughter would be summoned to our presence and lectured for hours. Why had she not studied harder? Why had we wasted our money on test prep schools only to have this occur?
This is the scene I imagine at Azia's house. "You got into UCLA and Berkeley. So what...your classmate-your cousin-the daughter of a friend at church...got into Stanford-Yale-Harvard...what's the matter with you?" The next day loving daughter Azia reports admission to Stanford via e-mail...."Sorry mom I mistakenly deleted it." Next Sunday at church mom and dad report Stanford admission to everyone....all friends, all family back in Korea...Azia's a hero.
Later - "Azia, what day do you need to be at school?" ("Orientation Day"). When do we pay your tuition?" (Oh, Ohh...ahhh, didn't I tell you mom I got a full scholarship?") Proud parent drives kid to school, ("Don't worry about me, I can find my own way, Bye.") Azia applies again, gets admitted, but no scholarship. (Oh, Ohh...have to enroll but can't ask parents for money or what's going on with the full scholarship."). Meanwhile she will do anything, anything to keep the charade going and the day of reckoning at bay...then the story breaks and the shame you and your family have to endure is worse than anything you imagined.
As much as I have been fascinated by Azia's story, I have been appalled by the many responses. Most of those who call for her punishment cannot begin to imagine the tortures a Korean family (ironically bound up in its love) can visit on a child who has failed to meet expectations. It is not necessarily in the severity...it is in the length of the punishment. There is no end to it and can only be punctuated by sleep. The $42,000 in restitution, if exacted, would be paid by the family, then added to the complaints heaped upon the poor kid's shoulders.
None of the commentators in these postings, parents and students alike, has demostrated having walked an inch in Azia's shoes, much less the proverbial mile. Shame on you! After what I have read, I'm, glad my daughter never wanted to go to Stanford. The place seems to turn trust fund babies and financial aid students alike into insufferable snobs with a withered ability to empathize.
I would love to see Azia rewarded at some point for her best attempt to be true to her parents' expectations. If you want to punish someone, let it be the parents, who couldn't be satisfied by UCLA or Berkeley (that would satisfy every Korean parent I know). Maybe someone from UCLA or Berkeley who speaks Korean can go to her home and explain to the parents that it is ok for the girl to go to those schools and that there is a considerable amount of the desired prestige available at both. But please don't bring her back to Stanford. You don't deserve her.
"As rejection letters arrived, my daughter would be summoned to our presence and lectured for hours. Why had she not studied harder? Why had we wasted our money on test prep schools only to have this occur?"
You did that to your own daughter, and you can't understand why strangers are ragging on another stranger on an internet forum? I agree with your sentiments, but I'm not sure you're the right one to throw the first stone, Dave.
Why isn't the administration at least pursuing a symbolic restitution from AK? Volunteer work, a mental checkup, oh hey, how about a freaking apology to the school?
As an alum, I'm seriously questioning why I even donate to the university if Stanford wants to simply "write off" expenses incurred by a free loader like AK.
I guess it's simply easier to ignore the problem rather than deal with it.
Dave, I really enjoyed your comments on this. It was nice to hear a little rationalization of this.
On another topic, I'd like to see the Daily have a followup story about the level of racial tension that has been used by students in discussing this story. It seems like tolerance at our highest institutions isn't what we thought it was. It seems behind the times, for the phrase "but she's Asian" to serve as an excuse or answer for anything.
And to watch people mistake the difference between Asian and Asian-American in this discussion makes me question....
Wait, this is Stanford. Aren't the students here taught some form of global cultural understanding?
I am a Korean American myself, and I find your ramblings a torturous read.
Who are you making excuses for? And upon every rejection letter, summoning your daughter for a long lecture amounts to "love," and you say with a straight face that Korean parents love their children more than non-Korean parents? Well, fuck you, Kae Sae Ki (Korean word for asshole). A racist scumbag.
Here she is, feeling already bad about having been rejected, and you pile on. Once again, fuck you and commit suicide (Jah Sahl), Kae Sae Ki.
And tell your "inconsolable" wife to do the same. Your English is pretty decent, so you may think about looking outside the hellhole that is the Korean community and engage non-Koreans and learn what life is all about.
And here is the thing. I have known many Koreans from Berkeley and UCLA who have shitty dead end jobs. Unlike Korea, having a degree from a name school does not guarantee a posh job. Sure, back in Korea, a degree from Seoul University (or Yonsei and Koryo) will bring you a life of wealth and privilege, but nothing is guaranteed here.
And here is why the Korean grads from Berkeley and UCLA have shitty dead line careers. They have never learned to socialize and network with non-Asians. All their friends are Korean and confinement to the Korean subculture limit one's career choices and a degree from a prestigious university does not easily cure that.
Teach your kid to be a well balanced individual. But I am afraid it is too late since you don't appear to be one yourself.
Fuck you and good night. You are a moron and you thought you were describing some out-side-the-box thinking to us, but it's the same all shit.
Kae Sae Ki.
"a junior transfer" at UCSD.
Some news for you. My Gawd, you are a Bah Boh. When she graduates, the diploma will say, "The University of California, San Diego." This will be the case whether she is a junior transfer or has attended UCSD since her freshman year.
Most posts about Asian parents' unreasonable expectations are valid, and please open your mind.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
When in Korea, do as the Koreans do.
When in America, do as the AMERICANS do.
You know, if you want to get a "hot" wife in the US, all you need is a big pile of money. They could care less where you went to school. I did not have any idea how nuts the Koreans are about what school you go to.
What a crazy story!
Was this Kim chick going to fake it for four years? Then what?
It's nuts!
Paul wrote: "I did not have any idea how nuts the Koreans are about what school you go to."
From my experiences and observations, Chinese and Koreans care GREATLY about what school you went to. As others have observed, in Asian countries (particularly China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Korea), your success is determined not by your work ethic or your overall character, but by what university you went to.
Also in Asian culture, there are no such thing as "redemption" or "second chance." Once you blew it (that is, once you fail to get admitted to a prestigious university), you're pretty much screwed. That is, the Asian mentality is: you reap what you sow. American culture loves comeback kids, kids who have redeemed themselves through determination and a will to succeed. In Asian culture, comeback stories do not win you any sympathy. Furthermore, trying to prove to others that you can redeem yourself is a sign of weakness.
Conversely, Japan used to be just like China and Korea when it comes to prestige and education. Now, for several reasons--two of them including the surge of suicides due to academic pressures/failures and the overall slow growth rate of the country's population--Japan's mentality when it comes to academic prestige has loosened. No longer is Japan so preoccupied with name schools and prestige; instead, Japan focuses on overall balance (being a diligent student but also having good moral character and a sense of personal dignity).
Kim may not have had these problems if she said she was a Taliban functionary on her application.
To Dave wrote: "And here is the thing. I have known many Koreans from Berkeley and UCLA who have shitty dead end jobs. Unlike Korea, having a degree from a name school does not guarantee a posh job. Sure, back in Korea, a degree from Seoul University (or Yonsei and Koryo) will bring you a life of wealth and privilege, but nothing is guaranteed here.
And here is why the Korean grads from Berkeley and UCLA have shitty dead line careers."
I have several Chinese and Korean friends who are on the same boat. Many of them were pushed to attend elite institutions (UCLA, Berkeley, Stanford). Once they marticulate to those universities, they completely rest on their laurels (or in some cases, totally burn out). Their parents tell their children that once they enter a brand name prestigious institution, they are set for life and don't have to worry about anything else. This sort of message is poisoning their children. Because of this, many of these Asians indeed end up having dead end jobs. Many also become extremely bitter because they feel that they worked their butts off to attend a brand name institution yet they have nothing to show for it.
Couple of anecdotal examples. A Vietnamese friend of mine went to UCLA. Majored in computer science. Took him 5 years to graduate. He's now working at Best Buy. His parents pushed him to attend a brand name institution but he never learned anything about getting a good, quality education. UCLA is a great institution but it's obvious he never took advantage of its resources; he relied solely on UCLA's brand name and he screwed himself completely. He hates his job at Best Buy and many, if not most, of his co-workers either are junior college graduates or graduated from completely obscure colleges.
Another example, a Chinese friend of mine graduated from UC Berkeley. His is a little different from my UCLA friend because my Berkeley friend DID have a very respectable job offer. He had a chance to work for a major company in Silicon Valley. Turned it down because he wanted to become a film actor. He's spent the last 3 years or so waiting tables and doing other menial work in hopes of landing his big break. He keeps a positive attitude and has had walk on roles in many mainstream movies (including Memoirs of a Geisha and Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift), but acknowledges that he's had little to no acting experience and thought that his Berkeley name would open doors for him in Hollywood. Yeah right.
I also want to add that in SoCal, you see many, MANY Asians who graduated from UCLA/Berkeley/USC and even Stanford working dead end jobs waiting tables, driving cabs, working in night clubs, working in sales/retail, etc. If you go to LA, don't be surprised if you find out that a blue collar Asian is a graduate of a prestigious university.
I had no idea how many Ivy graduates can't rely on their brand names...
Wow, Ivy doesn't pay off wrote: "I had no idea how many Ivy graduates can't rely on their brand names..."
Welcome to the real world, bud.
Korean's are way too concerned about the name brand of the school they attend. It's definitely a huge problem within Korean society. Kid's break their back trying to get into Seoul National, or an Ivy+Stanford+MIT. It's quite messed up actually.
In America people ask you, "What did you study in College?". In Korea people ask you, "What school did you go to?". Your major is of secondary importance.
Maybe these "name brand" conscious asians should head on back to their homeland where your alma mater is more important than what you can do for your employer.
What if some man or woman who went to Seoul National gets a big job in Korea and is a total screw up? Do they get to keep their job anyway?
This is getting stranger by the minute!
Charles Shu, you are so right on.
I know this Asian guy who is from Princeton. He drops Princeton every fucking chance he gets.
"When I went to Princeton."
"My friends from Princeton"
"This store nearby Princeton."
The guy has a decent job, but it is not a type of job that say UC Riverside grad can't land. In fact, his manager who is just a couple of years older than he is is from UC Irvine.
To Asian kids who read this. The day you get your acceptance letter from Ivy-Stanford-MIT is not the most important day of your life. Regardless of whether you end up at MIT or Cal State LA, you still have to work hard when you are in school and you still have to continue to apply yourself once you get that degree.
Yes, in Korea you are set for life once you have that degree from Seoul University for the most part, and that is why your parents still have that mindset about what school you are from.
But this is America here. Get it through your thick skull.
Paul G.
"What if some man or woman who went to Seoul National gets a big job in Korea and is a total screw up? Do they get to keep their job anyway? "
Yes, and that is often the case because the company likes to say that their management team has Seoul University grads. Whether the Seoul Univ. grads have performed well is secondary.
"Our management team has 6 Seoul Univ. grad."
And dollars from Korean investors will pour in. No other questions asked. These places would rather go bankrupt than lose their Seoul Univ. grads in their ranks.
I chose the schools that offered what I wanted when I wanted it: UC Santa Cruz (BA), San Francisco State (MA), and the then UCLA for my PhD, and received excellent educations at all three of them, while really living life in between (and during) earning my degrees. What matters more is what you do when you are at a university, not so much the university itself. I would like to meet the student who absolutely taps out the resources of the university he or she attends. Those of you who think that the rest of the world outside of Stanford or Berkeley or UCLA is miserable seem to me to be more interested in hustling a high paid career and all that goes with it instead of a true education. Is Stanford just a fancy and expensive designer trade school? Is it everyone's dream to make lots of money in Silicon Valley or all places? I would hate for that to be true. If it is, you guys are getting ripped off more deeply than you know.
LOL Korean parents show/give more love to their kids compared to others parents and their kids. GTFO.
Dave, you're a bit misguided. How much you love your kids is
independent of race. Generally speaking, Americans have a different parenting approach than Asians.
I'd post something substantial here, except in the Stanford Daily terms and conditions of posting I'm supposed to relinquish all rights to ownership and copyright of my comments, which I refuse to do.
Give me a break everybody. She's a poor lil' Asian girl who just wanted to please her parents and get a good education from a prestigious university. We should all cut her some slack. In fact, since she tried so hard to be accepted by her parents and the Asian community, why don't we just offer her admission to Stanford as a regular student?
This is what all the Azia kim supporters are saying, esssentially. What if this intruder of ours who was impersonating a Stanford student was black, Hispanic, or Heaven forbid, Pakistani? I bet if the intruder was a black person, everybody would say that he's a threat to campus safety and should be jailed. If this imposter turned out to be Pakistani, you can bet everybody here would be scared that he might've been a "potential" sleeper cell threat.
I remember when the VT massacre took place. MANY of my fellow Asians were hoping that the "Asian" who was responsible for the slaughter was a Pakistani, just SO the Asians wouldn't look bad or feel they were "responsible" for the worst mass shooting in history. This is from the same group of Asians (Chinese and Koreans mind you) who also believe that Indians and Pakistanis are not officially considered Asians and are just riding the coattails of the Asians' model minority success.
"I bet if the intruder was a black person, everybody would say that he's a threat to campus safety and should be jailed." -Anthony Wong
Actually, Anthony, your statement is no longer true. I doubt that anyone these days would be that ignorant, not in the SF Bay Area anyway. Over the years political correctness has done a good job educating people of their hidden prejudices and illogical perceptions. (Sometimes PC is a good thing.) Even if it were an intruder of Mid-Eastern/Pakistani descent, (educated) people are becoming more cautious about jumping into erroneous conclusions.
One would think that with all the liberals at Stanford at least one of them would have pointed out to somebody how and when a well know Arab terrorist was able to infiltrate the government, and allow Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo to make an AIDS like virus which also seems to be classifed TOP SECRET. Maybe, just maybe there is a Azia Kim connection?
What ever happened to this school's Honor System? That's a question we of the surrounding communities should be asking!
Better yet, what became of both American and French medical doctors who were caught in Africa injecting patients with pure AIDS, as reported by ScienceNews?
Is there also a Darfur connection?
It is interesting to note how Azia's ethnicity has become the determining factor in most people's reactions to her.
Although I do not know the ethnic backgrounds of the contributors to the various discussions concerning Azia on this website, the expressions of grave concern I have heard students on campus voice has come predominantly from one identifiable quarter. This quarter constitutes the majority of Stanford's undergraduates, and a significant proportion of of its alumni, doting parents, faculty, and graduate students. It is, of course, the white bourgeoisie, that phallogocentric class that in its arrogance continues unabated and unabashed in its centuries-long planetary plunder. This class, and its rising stars (most Stanford undergraduates) is threatened, mortified, and insulted that the institution dedicated to the preservation of its paramountcy could have been penetrated by a Korean-American young lady with aspirations that are, of course, entirely understandable. How COULD she, they say? How DARE she, they cry, the insolent little Asian, journey into OUR world without the right stamp on her ticket (daddy's flashy name and his formidable check-book)? Now that THEY have been caught off-guard, penetrated, and symbolically castrated themselves, the spawn of the white bourgeoisie reels in dismay. Punish her, they say. String her up. Teach her a lesson. To all this I say: power to you Azia Kim, for kicking them where it hurts.
Even in the case of those who would deny that their calls for legal action have anything to do with Azia's ethnicity, one is left to wonder what the law is if not a set of rules concocted by the ruling class (the white bourgeoisie and its collaborators amongst the upper and aspirant ranks of the ethnic bourgeoisie). All said, had Azia been a blonde airhead from Orange County, the likes of whom are to be found in abundance at our glorious institution, then one wonders if she would not have been awarded a prize of some sort for this remarkable and admirable feat.
It is indeed interesting that the one factor that everyone has been harping on is Azia Kim's ethnicity. The fact that she's Korean seems to have unleashed all these racist comments, even though we don't even know how embroiled Azia was in the Asian American community or how much Azia was a product of her community.
Why not question middle class America? Ask questions like: Why do we obsess about US News Top Ranked colleges? Why is there even a list every single year? Why Kaplan, why Princeton Review? Why are all our suburban high schools drenched in zealousness for the Ivies and the quasi-Ivies?
No, I don't suppose you care at all. Azia Kim's story is just an excuse to criticize the so-called Asian Americans. Non-Asians make xenophobic comments such as "Maybe these "name brand" conscious Asians should head on back to their homeland where your alma mater is more important than what you can do for your employer" and "i asia america, like become an doctor or an law or an what parent tell to." Asians themselves make inexcusable remarks such as "But this is America here. Get it through your thick skull" or even worse, try to disown Azia like she was "our" property in the first place.
Such prejudice in your evaluations is almost, if not more, insidious than the act Azia Kim committed. If anything, it was a mistake on her end. It was a mistake to think that Stanford had the right kind of community to support her. It was a mistake to think that a name-brand will make a significant difference in her life. But regardless of whether Azia learned her lesson, what lesson have you learned, dear reader? I am a Stanford student and all I have been hearing in these ridicules and complaints against Azia is a sense of righteous entitlement--that "it's our school, not hers. This is the high and mighty college for the elite and oh yes, how dare she even try to be one of us." Even the Daily chooses to cast her in criminal light, highlighting the most outlandish acts, excluding facts about her that could have brought a better understanding of her decision instead of "Oh look, it's a picture of Azia Kim eating a hot-dog. See those beady criminal (Korean) eyes. I'm scared already. Heighten campus security."
No of course not, to delve deeper into this would be to see the world beyond the polarized black and white, beyond the cartoon simplicity of an overzealous Asian student. And we wouldn't want that, would we. Thinking hurts.
Larry, what is your ethnic background?
I would rather see the likes of Azia OUTPERFORM white Stanford students. I would rather see her discover the cure for AIDS before white Stanfordians do.
That is how you kick them where it hurts.
Many Asian parents pressure their kids a whole lot (mine not included) with their academics. I think Azia couldn't take the pressure from her peers and parents and was probably trying to avoid all the humiliation she would face if she told the truth. Naturally, going the route she did was quite extreme and definitely not recommended, but I feel sorry for her mental stage. Anyone with the right frame of mind wouldn't have done what she did.
DAVE :
You maybe married to an asian lady but that does not make you asian. Myself, as a REAL asian, hear this loudly :
NO WHITE MAN CAN EVER SPEAK FOR ME AS AN ASIAN!
F U DAVE!
Dudes, everyone - this Azia Kim incident is not an Asian thing, it is an American thing.
The real issue that noone seems to be talking about is that Azia COULD have got a good education somewhere else. 9 out of 10 applicants to Stanford aren't admitted, but the majority are willing to go to other schools. Stanford isn't the only place that you can learn! You can get a lot out of being at UC Santa Cruz, or Washington State, if you work hard, get to know professors, get involved in research and put in your all. We have a lot of grad students at Stanford who went to state schools or small private colleges, and clearly were able to reach their academic potential. This attitude that only certain schools are "worth" going to undermines the value of education entirely.
There are people from other walks of life who end up behind bars for stealing clothes. I knew someone like that. I doubt what was stolen was even worth as much as Azia Kim's ROTC gear.
I am Asian-American, but I feel more for someone who has to steal a jacket than someone who lives it up at Stanford for a year. And yet society says tough shit to the first one and gives Azia Kim a pass.
Can we please stop using the word "punish" and start using the word "prosecute"? This is not to criticize those of you who used "punish" but I think the issue becomes clearer if we look at the case from a legal and not a moral perspective, as much as those two terms are both similar and different. Doing so would end the conversation about "Asian shame" and all the rest of the discussion about race and her psychological, emotional and cultural motives for doing what she did. I think it should not even be pursued as a criminal case, but as a civil one, if that: bottom line she should be asked to pay at least something for the room and other amenities she received from Stanford and the ROTC, plus any administrative costs associated with settling the case. I am not sure what the exact circumstances of her using someone else's e-mail account were, let alone the exact nature of the phony emails she sent, which to my mind constitute fraud, but if what she did in that regard related only to her case and was not a direct invasion of the other person's privacy, then I suppose it is fine to just let it slide. If honor is such a strong value in the Korean community (now here I go!), if I were Azia Kim or her parents I would offer some compensation for what was used or taken. Stanford's unwillingness to pursue this matter further shows a real lack of principle and, as the previous commentator pointed out, really is elitist, as if to say: "We, big important Stanford, forgive the poor girl for what she did, and anyway it is not worth the time or the bad press for us to pursue the matter". What about the morale of your hardworking and honest students who deserve that their universtiy is fair and just?
It's somewhat telling that the most vociferous opinions that Azia Kim should be prosecuted comes from her fellow Asian Americans. While Kim's "masquerade" as a student is somewhat of an affront to the legitimacy of Asian Americans on the Stanford campus, it's ironic that her "stay" in the Asian-themed Okada dorm was the main factor that led to her downfall. If Kim had "made herself at home" in the Varian Physics Lab, like Elizabeth Okazaki, both of them would probably still be on the Stanford campus. ; )
Yes folks, my fellow Koreans (and other East Asians) are now using what's been long held as sacred by blacks: the race card. Its shrewd of us Asians to now use the race card in defending Azia Kim. "She's just an Asian who wanted to please her parents by attending an elite university." ROTFLMAO. It's ingenious that many of Azia's supporters are using the race card by saying Azia's harmless and that she was just trying to better herself. She wasn't non-threatening or anything.
XOXOHTFH
The more I think about it, it is really Stanford that comes out looking the worst in all of this, for all of the reasons that have already been mentioned. What else is going on that nobody knows about?
Let's leave the e-mail thing alone for a moment and talk about breaking and entering. Lawyers, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a friggin' _felony_ whether or not you go on to try to hurt the rightful occupant? And frankly, if Azia Kim had been confronted in the wrong way, who's to say she wasn't desperate and nutty enough to become violent?
Kim and Okazaki got away with shit that other, equally harmless/harmful people never would. (Black man or Pakistani? Hope you have a good lawyer.) My first impulse, like many others, was to give them a pass. But passes must be given out equally and fairly, or not at all.
Tyler, the cases of Kim and Okazaki are slightly different in that the latter was more of an "open intruder" - people in the physics lab knew that she was basically homeless and probably took pity on her to let her stay around. Kim's story was a total shock to those who knew her. I doubt that her fate would have been different if she had stayed at a different dorm.
However, I do agree with you that a substantial number of Asian Americans (and Asians in general) seem to be particularly harsh on their own group compared to other races (I'm using "race" as defined in the U.S. census). If they had been kinder and gentler toward one another, particularly toward members of their own families, then perhaps Kim just might not have felt compelled to take such desperate measures. This is not to condone her acts, of course, but we can all learn from her lesson that sometimes a little compassion can go a long way in preventing a lot of potential problems.
Now it is time to get practical about how the legal system works. Anyone can sue anyone for anything. What damages are there to show in the case of either Stanford or Amy Zhou? From Stanford there is rent and from ROTC clothing and equipment even though Kim returned it and who knows what the regulations are - the stuff is probably hers to keep just for going through the program, fraudulently or not. In the case of Stanford, if I were Kim's attorney I would find it quite easy to mount a very effective defense by citing passive acceptance of Kim's presence even if via negligence. So I now take back my preference for the word "prosecute" state earlier, and think that all of this should be handled out of court, and without attorneys. If Amy Zhou had any kind of relationship with Azia Kim, I think it would be much more effective to talk to her directly than to take any kind of formal action against her. Again, what would she ask for, pain and suffering damages? Perhaps I've missed it but what is really has to happen is for Stanford to issue a clear and definitive statement that shows their official final and response and any new or continued policy changes with regard to such incidents as may occur in the future.
All racial/ethnic elements aside, please. She broke the law and should face punishment in one way or another. I personally have been arrested, and put in jail on this campus for much worse. Mental stress, pressure..etc is NOT an excuse for this... Let me get back to expunging my record while she lives on w/o any reason to do something this stupid again.
Stanford breaks the law by contributing to this country's caste system.
I sure don't want you become a politician for the future. and if there's more people like you who likes to waste our tax dollar just to bring down a weak little girl to court, then i rather pay for your counseling first. you are one sick boy.
If Azia had only committed the fraud out of deep blind desperation, that would be somewhat understandable. However, as her favorite movie was "Catch Me If You Can" and her favorite singers were Amy "I'm trouble" Winehouse and Fiona "I've been a bad bad girl" Apple (as Azia proclaimed in her look-at-me website), you can see that she took great pride in deceiving people. Obviously she did believe that what she was doing was wrong but considered herself sexily naughty for getting away with it.
I'm sure she's planning to get a book deal & movie about herself out of this. The least she can do is pay restitution & also agree to turn over any future profits related to this matter to a Stanford scholarship fund.
As for Dave with the daughter that he & his wife lectured for hours at for not getting into top schools (after she did do the work of going to all the stupid cram sessions they forced down her throat instead of letting her be a full person), I hope she does not forgive you & your "inconsolable" status-seeking wife.
By the way, parents sacraficing greatly so that their kid can get into a top-name school is not "love", it's just for the prestige for themselves & their extended family.
Anthony Wong on 6/04/07 at 4am
Give me a break everybody. She's a poor lil' Asian girl who just wanted to please her parents and get a good education from a prestigious university. We should all cut her some slack. In fact, since she tried so hard to be accepted by her parents and the Asian community, why don't we just offer her admission to Stanford as a regular student?
This is what all the Azia kim supporters are saying, esssentially. What if this intruder of ours who was impersonating a Stanford student was black, Hispanic, or Heaven forbid, Pakistani? I bet if the intruder was a black person, everybody would say that he's a threat to campus safety and should be jailed. If this imposter turned out to be Pakistani, you can bet everybody here would be scared that he might've been a "potential" sleeper cell threat"
Excellent point, Anthony! If she wasn't a stereotypically "harmless" Asian girl and was instead black or Pakistani, everyone would be talking about the "dangerous" imposer and how "scared" they feel knowing this happened and school admins would be inundated by calls of concerns parents. You can bet that before you can blink an eye, the university would have put stricter security policies and lock down the dorms, and put bars on the Okada residents windows for their "safety."
She's a harmless bird who pecked a small hole into Stanford.

SMS
RSS feeds