Norman Finkelstein is by no means a "controversial" professor. Students and scholars who are familiar with Finkelstein's work know that his research is backed by almost every important human rights group working in Israel, and that all of his work has been subjected to extensive peer review. It is Alan Dershowitz, with his brazen apologist stance toward the gravest of Israel's human rights abuses, who truly deserves the label, "controversial."

Actually Dershowitz was not brought to fight divestment, which was defeated already. He was brought to fight stupidity masked as scholarship. The fact that 1000 National Merit semifinalists support something does not mean it is not idiotic.

Good point about torture. The difference is that the french left Algeria because it was not their country. Israelis are nto about to all leave Israel-- it is their country. So they have to fight terror. Not only are the Palestinians not helping but nobody in the whole world cares about Israeli problems fighting terror. They are completely on their own. So as long as the world has no practical solutions, these soliloquys about Algeria are interesting as the comic book museum, in New York. great, but so what? How does Israel stop terror?

Paul, you may be right (or not) about why Dershowitz came. However, Finkelstein is an embarassment -- "the Holocaust Industry" come on-- some of us have parents who were in the camps and are offended by him (even though his parents were ostensibly survivors as well does not give him carte blanche to insult and further humiliate those who survived and disagree with him). Regarding Israel recognizing Palestinian rights, it is you who are confused. The Palestinian government has terrorized its own people and taught them to glorify terrorists starting in kindergarten OR BEFORE. They have not prepared their people to live in peace with Jews. As such, any Israeli concessions in this environment are foolhard and suicidal. Israelis live in a 1938 type neighborhood.

Dan go home! Go back to Israel! Go home! Leave this country!

Don't stop speaking out Dan - ever! I wish more folks with your knowledge, caring and courage will start speaking out. Whoever flouts human rights organizations and the UN as guardians of peace and human are themselves immoral twits. Organizations like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the UN deserve a thorough investigation as to why Israel is considered the biggest criminal in the world while other countries such as China (who is totally oppressing the people of Tibet); Sudan which is murdering and raping thousands and nearly all the Middle East countries get away with much greater abuses. Why is suicide bombing and using government controlled media and religious (mosques) institutions to incite hatred in children still legal and not condemned? Could it have anything to do with the 57-1 advantage that the Muslim voting bloc has in the UN over Israel?

Women's Rights at the UN: Israel as the Only Violator, Anne Bayefsky

Last Friday, March 9, 2007 the UN wrapped up its annual session of the UN Commission on the Status of Women. Guess where they found a violation of women's rights? Among the hundreds of thousands of women who are dead, dying, mutilated, displaced or raped in Sudan? Among the million female migrant workers cowering in the basements of Saudi Arabian villas from the taskmasters who stole their passports the minute they got off the plane? Among the women stoned and hanged for "adultery" in Iran? The millions of women forcibly aborted in China? The thousands murdered or forced to commit suicide for the crime of "dishonoring" their fathers and brothers across the Arab and Muslim world?

If you guessed "none of the above," then you'll enjoy coming on down to the UN. The UN's lead body charged with promoting and protecting women's rights identifies only one state as violating the rights of women in the world today – Israel.(Violating the rights of Palestinian women.) The vote was 40 for and 2 against (the United States and Canada).

Germany, on behalf of the European Union, gave a one minute "explanation" excusing its affirmative vote. It said: "we express our deep concerns for the impact on all women in the region including the Israeli women" – although Germany did not insist such language be inserted in the resolution itself. For 60 seconds, the representative of the country where millions of Jewish women and girls were murdered en masse not so long ago took notice of the Jewish mothers and daughters who have fallen victim to terrorism in the Jewish state. This is the moral corruption that the UN breeds within democracies like Germany. In the United Nations, an institution owned and directed by the Organization of the Islamic Conference, the European Union grovels while the real abusers cheer.

the talk was anything but nuanced, in fact simplistic to the point of being laughable. these were some of the highlights of the talk yesterday:
"-i do not believe in torture but it will exist and so it should be used when preceded by a torture warrant"
-"when i said that whole palestininan villages should be automatically destroyed upon imminent threat of an attack, i didn't mean large villages, just small villages with 6-7 houses and families. it might not be the best solution, but i'm not convinced that its a bad idea."
-"home demolitions are a bad idea because they can be photographed by the media. but on a scale of violations, its only property loss"
-"we should go beyond name-calling. but i think that noam chomsky, jimmy carter, desmond tutu, tony judd, the presbyterian church, the british and canadian unions and many more are all wrong when discussing israel."
i'm embarrassed as a jewish person.

Alan Dershowitz's words, and the fact that they are given any credence in a debate about Israel's human rights record, troubles me greatly as someone who cares deeply about the future of the Jewish and Palestinian people. The best quote from the professor is on torture, which proves that Alan Dershowitz's legal wrangling is exactly what we do not need in this debate. Some things are simple, folks. Torture is wrong, is against 400 years of humanistic Western tradition, should be opposed by every gov't, including our own, end of story.

Paul, I would say that you have become controversial!

I find it interesting when a writer calls for Israeli recognition of the Palestinans. Look at histry, the question should be when will the Moslem world recognize the Palestian people and their anguish. Jewish Palestinians accepted the UN Resolution of 1947 partitioning the British Mandate. The Arab world would not let the Palestinian Arabs accept or establish an independent state. Trans-Jordan became Jordan by seizing the west bank for 19 years, they never tried to establish a Palestian Arab State. Dershowitz is right, let a dialogue begin not further diatribes.

Paul, you are either an undergraduate who has no inkling of reality, never having lived in the real world, or someone who has drifted off from being grounded in the real world. The Arabs hate Israel and no amount of Israeli concessions can affect that (just as no amount of Jewish persecution over 2000 years could dissuade Europeans or Arabs from their anti-Semitism). You give up this, and that, and soon you have nothing left and will be facing the enemy on the hilltops you abandoned. Why are we debating the right of Israel to exist for the umpteenth time? Wasn't that the basis of all the diplomacy we have already accomplished? That we weren't supposed to have to debate Israel's right to exist?

Paul Leonard, what rock did you climb out of. Please stop your lies. Joan Peters 'brilliant book "From Time Immemorial" has never been debunked by anyone except by a 3rd class so-called historian Norman Finkelstein, a disgrace to the human race. It is considered 'brilliant detective work' and she has unearthed a foundation of factuality, research and commitment to the truth. All you doubters, pick up this book -- it's got about l20 pages of footnotes, and use it to answer any questions you have.

The Palestinian Interior Minister just resigned.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/14/world/middleeast/14cnd-mideast.html
Those terrorists are killing each other as much as they are innocent Israelis. How can the Palestinians achieve statehood if they're incapable of conducting themselves in a democratic nature?

I am glad that the Palestinians and their supporters can celebrate Nakba Day--unfortunately they will be celebrating the wrong "catastrophe". Rather than calling the creation of the state of Israel a catastrophe (makes you wonder about their desire for "peace" with Israel), they should be marking the following catastrophes:
1) The failure of their arab brethern to truly care about their plight
2) the use of the palestinian people and their plight as a scapegoat to blame everything on Israel and the jewish people Or in other words, it serves the arab nations of the world more to have the Palestinians living in poverty and terrible conditions)
3) the theft of hundreds of millions of dollars from the palestinian people by Yasser Arafat and his cronies
4) the failure of the Palestinian leadership to renounce terrorism and recognize Israel's right to exist, thereby setting the groundwork for a true peace.
5) The continued bloodshed between Hamas and Fatah.
These are some of the real catastrophes that have befallen the Palestinian people

I don't want to belittle the suffering of Palestinians affected by the events of 1948 but I want to stress the need to consider historical facts.
While some Palestinians were expelled for strategic reasons, the vast majority were warned by their trusted Arab leaders that Arabs were going in to fight the Zionists and that the Palestinians should leave to avoid getting hurt. Those who stayed are in their homes today.
How many know that Naqba dates from the war started by Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, in an attempt to annihilate the Jewish state? How many know or care that more than 750,000 Jewish refugees were persecuted, murdered, robbed and expelled from Arab lands 1945-1970?
Had the Arabs instead accepted the partition and recommendation of UN Resolution 181, there would be both a Jewish state and a Palestinian state today. That is the real Naqba. Who will tell people the truth? I doubt those marking Naqba day even know it.

In the real world, Israel cannot be blamed for:

The Muslim enslavement of black Africans in Mauritania,

The mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Arabs in a 13-year Algerian civil war,

The endless brutal oppression of Egyptian Christian Copts in Egypt by Egyptian Muslims,

The genocide of 2,000,000 black African Christians and animists in South Sudan by Sudanese Muslim Arabs over the past 23 years,

The genocide of 800,000 black African Muslims in Western Sudan (aka Darfur) by Sudanese Muslim Arabs over the past 5 years,

The blatant religious apartheid of the Saudi government in Arabia,

The mass murder of Arabian Shi’ites by the Saudi royal family,

The de facto maintenance of slavery as an economic institution in Arabia,

Saddam Hussein’s murder of hundreds of thousands of his own Iraqi citizens during his 32 years of repressive tyrannical rule,

The current Muslim-vs.-Muslim terrorist carnage in Iraq,

The Taliban reign of terror in Afghanistan,

The decades-old civil war between Islamofascists and non-Muslims in Nigeria,

Syria’s brutal 27-year occupation of Lebanon,

Six decades of Muslim terrorism against the Hindus of Kashmir and Gujarat,

The Muslim repression of Hindus in Bangladesh,

Islamic terrorism in East Asia (Bali, East Timor, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia),

Muslim terrorism against Russia (remember 186 dead children at the school in Beslan?)

The brutal Islamic subjugation of women prevalent in many Muslim countries for the last millennium,

The Muslim persecution of Christians and Jews throughout the Muslim world since the beginning of Islam,

The fact that the “religion of peace” spawned a thousand-year war against the non-Muslim world (aka Jihad) a thousand years before Israel came in to existence,

The grinding poverty and lack of productivity that typify even the richest of Arab countries, as documented in three recent UN-sponsored studies,

The fact that, while not all Muslims are terrorists, almost all terrorists, for the past 30 years, are Muslims,

The fact that millions of Muslims every year flee their home states, Shari’a law, and Islamic sovereignty, to seek refuge, a better life, broader opportunities, freedom and a brighter future for their children . . . in Western states.

To the editors: Why does Omar Shakir deserve to get quoted as a "counterforce" for every pro-Israel article published? why don't you quote Ben Klafter for every time Shakir makes a speech for balance?

I won't just be attacked by pro Palestinian antiSemitic rants. I will ALSO be attacked by Stanford intellectual anti-Semitic rants

Hey, Pardon us,
Would you care to comment on any of the following (mentioned in one of the comments above)? We'd be interested to see point by point rebuttals, and then it'd be fascinating to hear how you still manage to link ALL the problems to Israel. See what's hapenning in countries you support.
The Muslim enslavement of black Africans in Mauritania,
The mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Arabs in a 13-year Algerian civil war,
The endless brutal oppression of Egyptian Christian Copts in Egypt by Egyptian Muslims,
The genocide of 2,000,000 black African Christians and animists in South Sudan by Sudanese Muslim Arabs over the past 23 years,
The genocide of 800,000 black African Muslims in Western Sudan (aka Darfur) by Sudanese Muslim Arabs over the past 5 years,
The blatant religious apartheid of the Saudi government in Arabia,
The mass murder of Arabian Shi’ites by the Saudi royal family,
The de facto maintenance of slavery as an economic institution in Arabia,
Saddam Hussein’s murder of hundreds of thousands of his own Iraqi citizens during his 32 years of repressive tyrannical rule,
The current Muslim-vs.-Muslim terrorist carnage in Iraq,
The Taliban reign of terror in Afghanistan,
The decades-old civil war between Islamofascists and non-Muslims in Nigeria,
Syria’s brutal 27-year occupation of Lebanon,
Six decades of Muslim terrorism against the Hindus of Kashmir and Gujarat,
The Muslim repression of Hindus in Bangladesh,
Islamic terrorism in East Asia (Bali, East Timor, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia),
Muslim terrorism against Russia (remember 186 dead children at the school in Beslan?)
The brutal Islamic subjugation of women prevalent in many Muslim countries for the last millennium,
The Muslim persecution of Christians and Jews throughout the Muslim world since the beginning of Islam,
The fact that the “religion of peace” spawned a thousand-year war against the non-Muslim world (aka Jihad) a thousand years before Israel came in to existence,
The grinding poverty and lack of productivity that typify even the richest of Arab countries, as documented in three recent UN-sponsored studies,
The fact that, while not all Muslims are terrorists, almost all terrorists, for the past 30 years, are Muslims,
The fact that millions of Muslims every year flee their home states, Shari’a law, and Islamic sovereignty, to seek refuge, a better life, broader opportunities, freedom and a brighter future for their children . . . in Western states.

I suppose we'll now start hearing all those cries of "racism" and "discrimination" now, as this has been the favorite resort of the pro-Palestinian/Muslim groups on campus instead of actual debate.

you realize that you all are fucking idiots, right? both sides. just thought i would chime in. keep on pointing fingers at each other for all eternity and see where that gets you. and neither side should try to spin what i said in their own favor.

I think roger rabbit just ended this thread. No need to continue folks.

I read a good article about pros and cons of legalization of torture. And it concluded that if you legalize torture it will be inevitably abused (like someone above said - it's an easy shortcut).

However if it's illegal - it does not mean that it won't necessary be used - but when it's used every case would have to be looked at after the fact and see if it was retrospectively justified. In other words - an interrogator would now have to be pretty dam sure torture is required before applying - because if he/she's wrong - he/she will be punished. This disincentive (i.e. illegality aspect) will weed out all the trigger happy interrogators or other sadist from abusing prisoners unduly. But I think it will not deter those investigators who know the prisoner is guilty and torturing him/her will bring out information that will save lives – it wouldn’t deter me.

Well, you apparently hate Israel, and I am sure you cheer every time a bus with children blows up in Israel - right?

But I really don’t think so – because unlike you – I don’t vilify my opponents just because they don’t share my point of you (which by the way Chomsky does all the time).

Only a psychopath likes to see people tortured. And my hunch that there are very FEW people like that on both Pro and Against Israel side.

We are here discussing a real world situation where both parties ARE NOT saints. However if you know anything about Arab history you would know that the only way a Jew (or a Christian for that matter) can live among Arabs in peace is if he/she accepts a lower class (an outcast) position, with very limited rights and jobs he/she can hold (ton’s have been written about it by Arab writers themselves). It is a much much worse position Israeli Arabs are in. In fact Arabs in Israel enjoy higher standard of living – then in ANY OTHER ARAB country. Reconcile that fact with your position?

btw - you answer my previous question - if you think Israel is so evil - why wouldn't it use it's existing weapons to destroy the Arabs? Think about it for a second before posting your nee-jerk reply.

Also think about the fact that Israel gave land back to Egypt after they conquered it in a war started against Israel. How does that fact fit into your Evil Israel picture?

Sooner or later as an intellectual person - you would have to reconcile those facts with your existing position and come the realization held by most intelligent people that Israel is not evil (and not saint either) but it only shares partial blame for the conflict. The other part is shared by Arabs themselves.

Also can you give me ONE thing that Arabs have done to help Palestinian people?

Yeah, because of Pakistan, all of Palestine will have to remain enslaved. I'm sure Palestine will understand. It is so logical.

Looks like, because of Arab governments (many being supported to the hilt by the U.S. and Israel, to prevent democracy from breaking out)-- yes, Palestine will have to remain enslaved. Sorry! But because of the undemocratic nature of Kuwait's and Saudi Arabia's and Egypt's and Jordan's U.S.-backed juntas... Palestine will just have to starve forever under Israeli sanctions, and Israeli F-16 fire. Why? Because the Palestinians insisted on voting their conscience. So now they have to die, right?

Guess what? Democratic or undemocratic, nice neighbors or mean neighbors, Palestine was never supposed to come out alive. Look at Israel's history of bloody conquest, from the very beginning.

Did France "love its neighbor" when Germany invaded? Why do you expect Palestine to love its Israeli occupier? Would you?

Now I realize that I am talking to a person who can't tell the difference between Natzi Germany and Israel. I guess that requires IQ of over 80pt.

Ok for 5 year olds:
1. Israel does not have Gas chambers to kill arabs
2. Have Israel engaged in genocide - Palestinian problem would've been "solved" back in 1948 - and you would only read about it in history books and wouldn't bother you silly little head with this problems.
3. Germany never willingly gave any land back to an enemy
4. 20% of Israeli population are Arabs and NONE of them are trying to escape the country to Arab countries.

If you ignore all previous arguments - pay attention to the 4th one: FOR IMPARTIAL JUDGEMNT OF COUNTRY’S INTENTIONS YOU CAN ALWAYS COUNT ON PEOPLE VOTING WITH THEIR FEET. So far Arabs are escaping INTO Israel - not the other way around.

Comparing someone/something to Nazi - is a refuge of last resort for a witless mind. And how would an intellectual person argue against that?

Allow me to demonstrate. For example I accuse you, the author of "France" posting, of being a Nazi. Here's my proof:
1. You want Israel to be wiped out
2. You hate Jews
3. You like when Arabs kill Jews.
4. And since Nazis were killing Jews - you are a Nazi.

So if you're a Nazi - anything that's done to you is ok. If someone wants to blow you up - it's ok, if someone wants to wipe you out - it's ok too.

Prove me wrong!

I love Nakba Day. It is my favorite holiday. I like it more than Thanksgiving or Christmas. I can enjoy seeing the Palestinians celebrating their self-inflicted catastrophe. I love seeing them in all their misery-- wallowing in their waste and garbage.
I know that many other arabs enjoy Nakba Day also--since they do nothing to help their palestinian brethren except to use them as pawns in their attempts to destroy Israel.

Israel effectively rules over many millions of Palestinians, most in areas Israel has designated as NOT-ISRAEL-SO-DON'T-BLAME-US. But you know quite well the pure hell which Israel is making of Palestinian life, inside and most bloodily OUTSIDE the Green Line.

You are so right-- some Palestinians CAN vote. Ask Azmi Bishara (who's fled). Ask Hamas (elected, but dead, dying, jailed, and kidnapped by Israel.) And voting is nice, even if your kids are anemic, malnourished, and wetting the bed as Israeli bombers blast through their land.

Can I say "their" land? Or is even the heart of Hebron and Jenin "disputed" land?

You are ignoring the vast majority of violently occupied Palestinians (and please refrain from saying "Arabs"; it tends to deny the existence of Palestinians). What is happening to Palestinians today is quite similar to what happened to Russia during 1919, when the U.S. and Europe invaded Russia, fomented civil war, and helped to starve the place white.

Yeah, see Israel has only positive intent. When Israel kills 4,000 Palestinians, it's done with good INTENT. The massacre of 3,000 more Palestinian refugees, at Sabra and Shatila? Done with good INTENT. The IDF destroying Jenin? Done with good INTENT. Get it? It's all legal. And how do you know Israel's intent? Just ask 'em!

Re Israel has positive intent:
You need to study your history and get your facts straight--it was not the Israel's that massacred the palestinians at Sabra and Shatila--it was your arab bretehrn the Lebanese christians. Why did they feel the need to carry out this "massacre"? Did it have something to do with the ill treatment they had received from muslims???
Despite the propoganda and hype by the Palestinian spin machine, it has been long recognized and agreed upon that Israel did not "destroy" Jenin.
Clearly the actual facts have nothing to do with your postings.

Israel has murdered tens of thousands in Lebanon. One famous example was at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.
It only took the Israeli military, and their Phalangist allies, two days to massacre over 3,000 people in those camps, after first making sure to either kill or exile all resistance fighters from Beirut:

"Between 3,000-3,500 men, women and children were massacred within 48 hours between September 16 and 18, 1982", writes journalist Amnon Kapeliouk, one of the first reporters who arrived on the scene.

Source:

Israeli journalist Amnon Kapeliouk.

See his book, titled "SABRA & CHATILA: INQUIRY INTO A MASSACRE" (Translated and edited by Khalil Jehshan)

The book shows that the highest levels of Israeli military command made that massacre happen, with careful Israeli planning and consulation paving the way for those so-called "christians" who did the raping and killing.

Israel even lit the killers' way with bright lights through the night.

After reading that book, you'll see that Israel really is a Nazi state.

Yeah, Palestinians today vote, for Hamas, then starve and bleed under an un-ending Israeli siege. Previously, the voted for the side Israel favored. Only to starve and die under that same Israeli siege.

What a beautiful illustration of Israel's natural superiority! The Israeli Army doesn't just commit massacres in Lebanon. Oh, no, before the blood is swept into the storm sewers, Israel launches "investigations", and has a good cry! It is so inspiring, to all mass murderers everywhere.

Imagine the bittersweet tears that will wash over Israel after it nukes a million or so Muslims into powder, in the future.
Yes, the IDF has a soul. When you think of soul, think of that Israeli killdozer that mowed down Rachel Corrie, or the one who flattened Jenin. Those IDF drivers must have cried buckets of tears.

Your advice to occupied Palestinians is touching. And your plan was already tried, for many, many years, up until around 1994.
Accomodation to occupiers did not work against any OTHER occupier in history. Should the French Resistance have simply waited until evry last French Jew was grabbed by the Nazis? Aren't you glad that they did resist occupation of their land?

It seems that the things that the Palestinians HAVEN'T attempted, include negotiating peace in good faith, compromise, electing responsible leaders, rejecting terrorism as a negotiating platform or gaining a grasp on real history and actual reality.

Shooting and Crying - That notion is also well known - Chomsky coined it. It's a dichotomy really - but really do people bother to think about it. Bear with me...

How do you distinguish an accident from an evil action. By intent. Say you get hit by a car. If person meant to do that - he goes to jail. If he didn't - he goes off with a warning. True intent means a lot - Agree?

Now if you believe the driver is Evil - then you don't have to bother to check their intent - they are guilty in your eyes - is that not correct? On the other hand if you believe driver is good - then you don't question his intent either - correct? I.e. your preconceived notion of a person is very important too - just as important as true intent - Right?

What if you're mistaken about your preconceived notion (i.e. you think driver is evil while he is actually good)? What evidence would you think suffice to change your mind? Is there any at all? - The answer is: No evidence will change your mind!

Allow me to demonstrate (remember you think driver is evil):

Let's say you see that driver is crying, claiming he's sorry he hit you. - You say he's just pretending - trying not to get punished.

Let's say person gives up driving. You say - he will choose other means to hurt people.

Let's say person becomes activist and tries to toughen driving regulations? - you say he's trying to cover up his actions.

I claim, that you have an “Evil” bias against Israel (what’s called prejudice by some)

If you believe that a democratic society where people openly speak out against violence towards others - is an evil society/apartheid/nazis - then you made up your mind that Israel is EVIL and by that you closed your mind off to any possibility of open evaluation of real world facts that contradict your view.

In other words – you lost your liberalism of thought (i.e. got indoctrinated)

You know you replied too fast - to read my (long) post in ti's entirety - but should I be surprised - an indoctrinated person rarely stops to think when they read something opposite of that they think.

Again Intent - Imagine you have two people in jail
- one wants to kill as many as he can - but didn't get a chance because he got arrested.
- another killed a whole family because one person in that family killed his sister

Answer this: If you had to let one go - who would it be?

It is these type of closed minded, far Right wing,knee jerk supporters of the proposition that "the Palestinians can do no wrong, and Israel can do no right", that is poisoning the prospects for peace for the Palestinian people, as well as the open discussion of the issues on campus.

You see - you're so closed minded that you can't even allow yourself a simple thought experiment. So much for liberalism of ideas...

Anyway, the point was – that Intent can not be divorced from Result (or result from intent) - and you're trying to do just that – i.e. deal with WHAT and not WHY – you’re practicing intellectually dishonesty.

how old are you, 5?

I read the invective against Israel and I read the arguements and defense of Israel actions. I think some terms need to be defined. 1. until 1948 when one used the term Palestinians, it referred to the Jewish settlers in Palestine 2. Occupied Land, the State of Israel is a legal entity, sanctioned by the countries of the world, it sits on ancient land of its people. 3. Isn't Jordan "occupied Land" since the British government established it by fiat without any sanction by any world body. Neither the west bank or Gaza are occupied by Israel, the Palestinian Authority has governing rights and responsibilities for those areas, perhaps if they excercised those rights and did their job, their people could live in peace and grow and develop.

destroy the vampire state!

If any of you halfwit armchair supporters of Israel had actually read the Holocaust Industry, you would know it finds fault with jewish groups and the lawyers who blackmail governments and companies to fork over money. The book ridicules said lampreys for not giving the majority of the money to actual survivors of work camps, but instead lining their own pockets.